We sit down with Emmett Shine, a seasoned entrepreneur in the DTC space, Co-founder and Creative Director of Gin Lane and Pattern Brands.
Pattern brands is the parent company of these really cool brands in the home good space, like Open Spaces and Equal Parts. Gin Lane is the creative agency behind some really notable companies like Hims, Sweet Green, Quip, and Harry's.
In this conversation with Emmett, we talk about how he was drawn away from the classroom and into doing his own thing, as many founders do. We discuss his ability to do an incredible job organizing people who are just incredibly talented, which is one of the reasons that made Gin Lane so successful. Emmet dives into what makes Gin Lane so special and successful.
Phil 00:01
Welcome to the DTC Growth Show, I'm sitting here today with Emmett Shine, seasoned entrepreneur in the DTC space, co founder and creative director of Gin Lane and Pattern Brands. Pattern brands is the parent company of these really cool brands in the home good space, like open spaces and equal spark equal parts and a gin lane. I think most people in the DTC space nogen Lane really well, they were the creative agency behind some really notable companies like hims, and sweet green and quip and Harry's, and the list goes on. I'm really excited to be sitting down with you today. I met Thank you.
Emmett Shine 00:36
Yeah, excited to be here and talk with you and the community. And, you know, hopefully have a fun time. Awesome. You know, before we jump into lots of questions I've got about pattern and gin and stuff like that. I want to just learn more about you. I think that's something that that often gets missed in these talks. And, you know, what was your life like before starting Jin Ling um, I, my background basically, is I'm from Long Island, outside New York, I grew up in a town called Southampton and Sag Harbor on the East End. And my mom was, or is an artist, and my dad was a, like, a clamor fisherman and then a landscaper, and they got divorced. And I was in middle school, but you know, still close with both of them, but definitely took, I guess, kind of, you know, we are, I guess the products of our parents and so on, on one hand on like, esoteric head in the clouds, kind of, you know, artists thinking type person that is always just trying to be curious and create and learn. And on the other hand, I'm, you know, trying to work really hard, you know, like, like my dad and roll my sleeves up, always. And I used to landscape for him, you know, for many years, probably, like under age, even style, employee number one, like 14 to 19. And, you know, just never be caught kind of, he'd always say, like, Don't sit on the jobs, always find something to, to do. So always try to, you know, work hard and pull my keep and take care of myself and I guess fast forwarding a little bit if any of this is like interesting or funny or whatever. I don't know I guess we all have our like, ups and downs. And this added a third and for me, like, you know, I like learning and I, you know, I'm smart in some ways, but I always struggled struggled in the structured sense of school was always in like, special education classes and stuff and, you know, barely graduated high school did really good, but just always struggled to show up. And so I was kicked out of classes for asking annoying class questions and didn't really you know, want to go to college. So I finished high school and just landscaped Not, not for my dad who wasn't you know, we argue a lot but in a funny like, sitcom way, I guess, at this point. And, you know, basically some dude in my town I, there's a little Native American reservation, Shinnecock Indians, and I was seeing a guy just to kind of talk through life stuff, and he was like, go, you're smart. And you should not just like, accept, kind of just stay in this town and landscape. And so I saved up some money and we looked at a map and I'd never really left the US and saved up and went to New Zealand, which was kind of the furthest place on the map or the globe that I could find to go to and went there for almost half a year. Right after 2001 which was pretty weird time to kind of travel 911 style. And then went to Puerto Rico both of those were kind of for like surfing and I bought a camera and learn how to take photographs. And you know, my mom convinced me to apply to college and I got into NYU Tisch for photography. So I went there because I wanted to go to the city I wanted to be in New York and I thought could be kind of cool for art, I can never be as good at painting as as achieved, but there's, you know, this newer medium of the camera that I thought I could be good at for photography. And when I got to school, you know, they had just installed the year before all these computers and so there was like a digital darkroom in addition to a traditional darkroom that's how, you know I would take photographs and you know, develop them and spend hours and hours and dark room you know, trying to get the photos right, but then I can go into digital darkroom and I could use a digital camera and plug the photos in and edit them right there. Both things were free, taught myself kind of, you know, the Adobe Creative Suite and you know, Dreamweaver and flash and then some HTML and other programs. And once I kind of got hooked into that I, again found myself like, struggling with school because I just didn't want to go to class. I just wanted to stay and learn You know how to use the computer and build the skills up and started you know, doing photography and brand design and web design that people would pay me to do and ended up dropping out of college to do that stuff full time and kind of bounced around worked a number of jobs work that Rockaway air, which back in the day with Jay Z and everything was like a little kid that like rap, like the coolest place to be and worked for vitamin water, when early days, I had just signed you know, 50 cent and Jennifer Aniston and worked on those kind of campaigns. And then started my own t shirt skateboarding company with kids I grew up with, called Lola and gin lane kind of came out of that, because I was doing a lot of freelance work. But any of the money we were making from Lola, which was going well, we had like, distribution in Japan, and we were selling stuff, you know, online, but the money would just go back into it, and people would never pay me kind of on time. So I thought if I said I was an agency, people would take it more seriously. And I just kind of hid behind the front of a name for a while didn't have an office or anything and you know, kind of fake it till you make it, it ended up people taking it seriously. And we got some fashion accounts and fashion brands because I knew art but I also knew like tech and I hired just people all smarter than me and fast forwarding to this conversation basically like Warby Parker, but nobles, everlane, those guys, when they first started, had heard of Jim lean, and what we were doing with like, digital interfaces and making stuff look really beautiful for you know, fashion brands and wanted to, you know, see how they could employ that type of thinking, you know, rest in peace to the founder, Tony from Zappos, you know, in him in what he influenced on like, the CX side, but like, Zappos wasn't known for its like, beautiful interface or photography or, or graphics, and, you know, they were pretty keen on, on bringing that in, and being progressive and mobile first and got in with them. And it really opened my eyes that there were, you know, entrepreneurs and business decision makers that were smart and thoughtful and saw the world kind of how I just looked at it, like constantly improving and connecting, and you know, that the internet was this powerful tool that you could create experiences that would work across all devices in store, or at home, you wouldn't be anonymous, and and that really just kind of kicked off. You know, this journey of getting deeper and deeper working with those VCs and those entrepreneurs and I don't know, I just kind of tried to make up for high school and college of like, just learning and being around really smart, curious people.
Phil 07:43
Awesome. Thanks for the overview. There's so many areas I'd love to jump into. And one thing that's that stuck out that's kind of off script, but I found really interesting is you kind of see, many founders have trouble with education. And you know, kind of through your story that you've shared the red multiple times that drew you away from the classroom towards doing your own thing. What do you what did you find that actually took you away from the classroom? What was it that that you found challenging?
Emmett Shine 08:14
I think it was a lot of stuff I have a lot of issues with like the education system and structure and I also dropped out of college because I got so tired of just going to bursar with cash and just like giving that my money. I don't know, I think High School is hard. I luckily, you know, I don't know, I wasn't like unpopular or anything insane. I just kind of did my own thing and had different groups of friends and always tried to fit in. You know, I think like, you know, in a divorce kind of household and limit your mom and you're trying to get by and make ends meet like you don't want to get picked on for having wack clothing and you just want to find ways to, to fit in. So always tried to fit in, but I don't know, I think structure was just always kind of hard for me. And I kind of just found a lot of stuff somewhat pointless about some of the classes and some of the teachings and I would argue with teachers and I don't know, I just liked it the actual act of learning. And I think college was like, I don't know, it's kind of cool in some ways. Like there's really thoughtful people and I love the access and the resources, but there's so much pressure on just like I went to art school and I was kind of like, how do I make money? You know, like, I don't give a shit at this point anymore about all this, you know, the history of it. Like I can read that on my own, like how do I make money as a photographer like I just did a I did a talk like last week a friend of mine is a teacher at New School Parsons. And he was like, Yo, what do you have to say to these like kids, you know, all these il designers and everything and I was like, Look, if you're here in this class, you're clearly really good at what you do. So I don't tell anything about hard skills. What they don't teach you in college is a soft skills. It's like you got to wear so many hats. How are you gonna build someone? How are you going to manage a client that doesn't want to pay you? How are you gonna deal with hiring someone you know that You don't know how to negotiate kind of compensation, you know, how do you go for if someone asks to be full time? How do you all that stuff, it's just like you're not, it's almost like you're better going to like a vocation or a trade school or intern is kind of a system where you can get like, taken advantage of, but it's also a place where you could really learn. So I just felt a lot of like, how do you survive as a normal person try to pay rent, if you don't, like, I'm down to do all hard labor, but I wanted to try to make money doing creative stuff. And I think I always found it really frustrating that there wasn't as many areas to do what you love and learn it that it's kind of like all entrepreneurs or people that are entrepreneurial, you kind of just say, fuck it, and you just try to figure it out on your own, which is great in one on one sense, but it's also, I don't know, kind of something that I don't love about America and the American model. It's just like, playing, you know, a board game, and you get some people get better cards and others. And I think as I got older, I realized I did have some some nice cards for myself that I was fortunate to have. But you know, just navigating through life is really hard. And I think the education system teaches you like, some stuff that isn't always applicable for how to navigate life as an adult.
Phil 11:17
Well said, well said how have you gone about learning some of those skills on your own? What were some of the approaches you took?
Emmett Shine 11:26
I just wanted to survive. And I wanted to do things that I felt like everyone has like their own kind of unique skills, you know, and I think for me, I'm just, I like, another funny thing is like I you know, I have Tourette syndrome. So we all have our own weird things. But for me, I can just see things really fast. And sometimes you say it too fast, and people can get mad at you. Because you don't always have the ability to stop it. But I was always able to see stuff in and think, oh, what if you did this? Or what if it looked like that, or Oh, that reminds me of this story or this thing I saw and just connecting thoughts together really fast. And I wanted to try to, you know, get paid for my mind and not paid for my hands. You know, by the time I was, you know, in my early 20s. I'd already been working for so many years with my hands. But I knew that my mind was more powerful than my hands and I was just trying to find ways that I could get paid for thinking and creating.
Phil 12:22
Super cool. When you when you spend some time at Rocha and things called Glasgow, Glasgow or Glasgow.
Emmett Shine 12:30
Rocaware and vitamin water. Which parent company was Glasgow? Yeah, okay, got it.
Phil 12:34
Oh, I didn't realize it was the same company.
Emmett Shine 12:37
Cool. Yeah, that's just like their like their hold COEs name? Got it?
Phil 12:42
What were some of the experiences you took away that that you think helped? fuel? You know, you, you getting into building gentlemen?
Emmett Shine 12:56
I think is doing whatever it kind of took to, like, I was like working hard. And you know, someone said, Hey, like, we've got this project, would you be down to help on it? Maybe it's a little bit over your skill set. And there's a tight timeline, I would just say like, Yeah, man, I bet like, let me get a crack at it. And just, you know, I would I'm always down to like, clean the toilet, mop the floor, you know, do the proverbial janitorial lowest level work just to, you know, show that the work efforts there. And, and I'm a big fan of like, learning through doing right, like, again, that autodidactic kind of part of that. And so you just surround yourself with people that that can give you a shot to try to do things. And I learned how to be a graphic designer, you know, I knew how to do photography, and I was getting paid to do photography, but I don't I, I don't think I wanted the career of a professional photographer. I did it for like two years. And, you know, I traveled for it and made good money and stuff. But I think I liked even though with the photographer, you're kind of behind the camera, you're still the main guy, you're still the main person. And I think my personality more likes to be even more behind the scenes and just work with a team and help create stuff. That's what I always really liked. And that's what I think I found kind of cool about an agency was, I could organize a bunch of people who, you know, I was okay at everything. But I wasn't great at anything. So I could get a web developer, I could get a web designer, I could get a graphic designer, I could get, you know, an art director, they were all better at their singular thing than I was, but I could talk to them and I could connect with someone that would try to pay us money. And that's where I think my skill set was was just learning how to navigate between what people want and how to deliver it.
Phil 14:36
Super cool. With that kind of thought in mind, and clearly you have done an incredible job organizing people who are who are just incredibly talented and I think that must be one of the reasons why Jim lane has had so much success. I think one thing just from, you know, the bleachers here that when I take a look at what you did with Jim lane, you know, once you're lucky and twice you're good, but I don't even know how many times You guys have done it, where you really build such incredible creative direction and brands that have come out of that agency. What do you think made Jen lane so special?
Emmett Shine 15:11
Yeah, I thought about it a lot. And, you know, I always think this stuff is way less sexy and romantic than it kind of seems. And I think for for Jim lane, what what was our success, in some ways was one, we were just really lucky. You know, I think that time, you know, in New York, there was a lot of people looking to, you know, create these new ways to communicate businesses and brands and figure it out online, you know, all the tools weren't as mature, the playbooks weren't as mature. And I think we were just exploring them at the right time. The other thing is, I just focused on again, the soft skills, I tried to always hire really hungry people that weren't always like, maybe the most, you know, highest regard, but they had, they had ambition, they had hunger they had, they were humble and and say to them, I believe in you, you're just some kid in college and fucking Skidmore, or you're in New Zealand, or you're just someone that didn't even have a college degree, but I see it in your eyes, I see that you really want it, I see that you have this interesting kind of vision and talent, you know, and trying to empower them and trying to create a place where work was fun, where people really felt it. Julian was famous said, If you got hired at Tulane, you would be presenting to a client The next day, there was no training. It just was like, Alright, figure it out, you know, and not in a way to be a jerk. It was just kind of like, Okay, well, here, you're, let's just do it. And the other thing was finding clients and entrepreneurs that I think were similar, they had done a really a lot of hard work, they found product market fit, they were passionate about what they were doing, and they wouldn't be jerks to work with. And I think we were really lucky that we found a lot of businesses that had great entrepreneurs, that knew how to pay people internally and externally. And those are the type of people just ratios that are going to be successful. They're not assholes. They're not delusional. They're not narcissists, they're, you know, it's like the guys from you know, Harry's or sweet green or Warby or, you know, the the team from dn CO, they're just the most humblest people they know that the success that they can create is is is based on them, getting good people together, and just keeping a homeostasis, which is so hard to do, you get so entrepreneurial, you get all these people that are just like, they suck with humans are so bad at dealing with like, their team, they're so bad at dealing with other partners, you know, pay people treat people nice. And I think that type of stuff, if you can just keep your lights on and manage your books, that's a recipe for success.
Phil 17:49
Well said, Well said, what, what one thing that I love, there is kind of just the best founders are, are humble. They're the most humble people, you know, they know to get good people together, they treat them with respect, both probably emotionally, financially and so on, you know, outside of that trait out of the CEOs, or founders of the DTC brands that that you worked with closely? adyen. What What's something really impactful that you personally took away from the folks that you worked with?
Emmett Shine 18:21
I, I think they a lot of those people knew a lot more about business than I did at levels that I didn't understand, like, how do you build a business that does millions of dollars in revenue, or 10s of millions of dollars in revenue, or has like, incredible net promoter score or such low return rates, and they would just surround themselves with really hungry motivated people that were very passionate about their crafts, and then they would really focus on on trying to make the level of quality and the level of effort and the level of energy, be, it's not delusional, but it was energized every day. It's like, hey, maybe we're just making glasses, or we're just making salads, but like, it kind of matters to us, it matters to you, you know, this is a job you choose to work here. We're also lucky, like, so many people don't have that luxury to choose where they work. They just gotta you have to do what you have to do. But if you can work at a cool business or cool startup, you're kind of choosing to do that. And so you treating employees like partners, treating customers as part of a community I don't like when like brands are called cults or something like that, because it it almost diminishes the the individualism of a customer or the employee, no one's being brainwashed. They're just doing a self representation of what they associatively see their values. And I think just understanding like, that whole mix, it's something really, really hard to do.
Phil 19:52
Got it. Were there any brands you got really emotionally invested in a gentleman
Emmett Shine 19:59
Yeah I think sweet green we like man I spent so much time with with those guys we used to take the Amtrak down to DC where their headquarters where they're like you know every other week we would you know sleep at a hotel next to where they were staying we would go to their sweetly festivals we worked in their restaurants to understand you know how their their back of kitchen the kitchen display system work the order management system worked I freakin I went to Burning Man with them in 2013. I'm the least Burning Man person in the world. Like, I like listening to hip hop and just like wearing Timberlands and or Nikes you know, but I was like, Okay, I'll go it's kind of weird. But like, that's a weird ass experience to do with someone you work with. So, you know, we were younger, we were in our like, mid 20s and you're trying to find yourself personally and professionally. And I think we just we all really kind of like, came of age together. Super cool. Super cool. I every time I would go to New York for for meetings or whatnot. I always been stopped at sweet green it's I still am shocked that there hasn't been something like similar to that in Canada, which is where I'm based out of love. Yeah, they're they just they just they just care a lot. They care you know, they they, they care about their employees. They care about the customer experience. It's like the dude from Warby to like, they go to every store the guy Neil Blumenthal, his Instagram, it's just all it is, is like, it's either him rapping his like his wife and their kids or the employees that work at the store, every screenshot every story, everything he does is just you know, it's a new store opening in Nashville, hey, check out what the team did in Portland like he knows the spotlight should be on the team, the spotlight should be on all those people that are just working so hard. And I think that's really important and special. Cool.
Phil 21:44
One thought I wanted to ask, just from like a creative direction standpoint is, you know, you've kind of seen the last decade like the era of DTC brands that have come to market and been quite successful have a common aesthetic. Why do you think that's the case?
Emmett Shine 22:00
Yeah, done kind of like a few talks and stuff on this. But what I, what I've tried to say is like, and maybe some of this is like, a little hypocritical to stuff I talked on, because I did absorb a lot at art school. But again, my point was kind of like, you could kind of do that on your own if you wanted to go to a museum or you wanted to read online, but, you know, like, looking at the history of art, there's so many movements, right, it's like Cubism, Impressionism you know, modern postmodern with, you know, data isn't Bauhaus, these groups and congregations of, of artists that are making statements visually, or, you know, someone could say this about music. So one could say this about architecture, whatever your creative field is, at the time you're in, you're making a reference to those times to society to what came before it. And so, branding is a form of advertising advertising as application arts is just an expression and a reflection of the times and what preceded it. And so direct to consumer for me what preceded it was two things. One was like, big corporations, that's where you bought everything online. Or there was kind of this like, weird hipster aesthetic where everything was like, plaid and twirly mustaches. And everything was, you know, bespoke and made in Brooklyn, and blah, blah, blah. And I think people wanted like, the kids of Apple, Steve Jobs had just passed away, right? They wanted this clean, easy to use interface and this aesthetic, that felt professional, but it also felt fun. It felt like I think, really, Apple has been so influential for that, that art direction and that aesthetic, and it was so counter to what websites look like, that's what I was saying about Zappos like, what they did from a customer service perspective, and a customer experience perspective was so foundationally different. I no one was like, Yo, check out the new Zappos webpage. It's fucking sick. You know, it's like, right? Like, all the stuff that was really beautiful, was in the fashion sector, but it wasn't easy to use, and it wasn't easy to buy. So if you could take that aspirational luxury, and you could make it accessible for these common products, a T shirt, you know, again, glasses, whatever it is, you know, lip balm, makeup, and it looks really beautiful, and it looks really clean and it's affordable, then, you know, you're selling in your 20s you know, you're living in a big city, you don't have a big paycheck. But you know, you're wearing an outdoor, you know, voices tote bag, and you're using glossier, or you're wearing allbirds, or whatever, it's like, it's kind of an aspirational sign that's also kind of approachable, you're not wearing Balenciaga, you know, you're not wearing Gucci sunglasses, it's like those are at a higher level that is harder to like financially achiever, whatever and, and so again, now there's like a new wave coming up, right? It's like that I talked about premium mediocre which is like the sweet green or the Warby Parker, etc. And there's domestic cosy, which is more like starface, or magic spoon or nugs or mischief, you know, and it's like anti design, it's more Tick tock, it's more, you know, breaking up traditional web design, because they grew up under the DTC, you know, aesthetic. They grew up seeing all the ads in the subway that look the same. And they're saying, yo, we've got a new twist on it, we've got a new tape that appeals to us. And it's not, it's not that any one thing is right. It's just like, music from the late 70s. Sounds really different than music from the early 80s. It doesn't mean that you can't listen to either and they're not good. They're just different reflections of different times in different places where people are at.
Phil 25:39
Love that you took the next question? away from me it was where you think it evolves. And I think you can articulate that really well. And you're starting to see that you're starting to see that come to life with some of the brands that you mentioned. One more democratize. Yeah,
Emmett Shine 25:53
it's more democratized. Now you can do more stuff. It's like my friend Joseph, you know, Cohen made the company universe and you can build these websites off your phone, you know, that's so cool. All filters and plugins. And it the DIY kit is more accessible, like you can be someone and create an audience and find a way to get a supply chain for a product, and then put up a website and you don't want it to just look clean, and whatever you want it to be more like, it looks like you made it arts and crafts style, cutting out pieces of paper, but using digital tools. So I'm a huge fan of that I'm the most supportive, I think it's awesome.
Phil 26:31
Totally. I wanted to talk a little bit about your shift from gin to pattern. And maybe we can just start with kind of what what triggered the shift for you in the team to want to build your own brands.
Emmett Shine 26:44
Yeah, I mean, I think again, like, just for me, and my personal stuff, it's like, if I'm not really engaged, or really challenged or really focused on something I kind of can drift away. And that's why I would struggle with school. It's like, just get into trouble. And you know, and I think for gin lane, like it was such a challenge. It was like, okay, all of a sudden shit, I'm responsible for other people's lives. Now I have employees, and we have health insurance and full time salaries. And, you know, and fuck, I want to be really good. You know, at one point, I remember, a friend moved out to LA like, yo, there's a really cheap space in LA, you should open up gin lane LA. And I asked, you know, a friend of mine, a girl, her, her father had a successful business. And I said, Hey, man, like, what do you think? And he went, dude, Own your backyard? Don't don't go into someone else's yard until you own your backyard. Are you the best agency in New York? And I was like, No, I'm good, we'll be good. He's like, well, then why would you go to another town, you're not even the best where you came from? Sounds like alright, shit, you know? And I was like, Okay, well, I want to be the best at what we do. I don't wanna be the biggest I'm not trying to be, you know, RGA or huge, or then work in coal or the other these spots that would do incredible work. I was like, let me what's the one thing that we could be really good at. And that's kind of where I think we just really focused on that, you know, the startup world. And we didn't just do D to C, we did all these like b2b businesses and SAS and, you know, but it was really launching businesses that had a consumer first approach, doing the branding, the positioning, that the digital marketing, the go to market strategy. And I think once Jim lane got to that place was like, shit, I think we're actually really good at this, then I didn't want to really do it anymore. And I was like, okay, what's, what's the next challenge that I'll probably suck at, but will be really hard and interesting. And I was like, well, operating a business that's in market is a lot harder than being a smart person in a room telling other people what to do, which is essentially what marketing is, you know, you're like, Okay, you're accountable for all this. This is your money. This is your company. But you should have this logo, you should do this website. And you should do this photoshoot. And this should be your ads, if it works great. We give us credit. If it doesn't work, you did something wrong. So I kind of wanted to be on the operating side. And then physical products. I just, I was so tired of digital stuff. I wanted to make a frying pan I wanted to make a bin and give it to my parents and say I made this here's a physical item, you never understood what I did you thought I fixed computers, you know, like, you don't understand what weird web design is and stuff. Like I wanted simple physical products. And I knew that would be really hard figuring out supply chains trying to, you know, put multiple brands together. I also saw that like all these businesses, like you know, the DTC brands, they have to raise money because there's inventory, but when they raise money, people expect them to try to be the next, you know, unicorns, but that that is not statistically the case. And it's not software where there's like 80% gross margins, and you just plug it in it's scales, it's different. It's physical goods. So could you put together a bunch of physical goods under one roof economically? Would that be, you know, more interesting and it was focused on the home and it was stuff that I wanted moving in Girl and and my partners were getting married and people were having kids in our team, I was like, why don't we just make brands that usually are boring once you settle down in a home, it's not as sexy as when you're in your 20s running around and being single and doing all cool stuff. But why can't still be really beautiful look at what is like, in Japan or in Scandinavia, like, stuff's beautiful. So, and everyone works on their phone too much. Everyone's burnt out for working too much. Maybe we can position it around, like enjoy daily life, like create some space with your work, create some space from, you know, your screens. And so I think that confluence of stuff was like, I was like, this would be really interesting to try to really tackle.
Phil 30:39
Very interesting. As you shifted from this being conceptual, and having this vision and bring it to life, which you guys have done quite well. And you've gone from pre to post launch, maybe you're in growth mode now. How is your perspective on brand and positioning shifted, and it has, what's changed.
Emmett Shine 30:59
It's changed so much in some ways it like there's stuff that is the same, but I think what's changed is that, like, we were hired to get it, right, people would come to me and they say, I'm paying you a lot of money, I'm under a lot of pressure, get this right. And so we would have to run a really tight process to give them the right elements that they could go to market and say, Hey, we're new, we're trying to disrupt, you know, a platform for nurses hiring each other or for you know, you know, plus size women kind of clothing or for alcohol being bought online or CBD beverages, you know, if you do a lot of research, we have to really try to nail and tested and tested and tested. What I've kind of learned from operating a business is like, that's all fine and dandy, but it really comes down to being in market and iterating iterating iterating, if you get it right, and you can have this powerful launching your product is great and resonates and the story resonates, you can go off to the races. And that's awesome. And that's what the press loves. That's what Twitter loves. And we got lucky to be associated with that a few times. But all the real grinders out there. No, you know, like you're sitting there every day and you're saying, Okay, this isn't working, this isn't working. This isn't working, this isn't working. And you just got to test, iterate, test, iterate, test, iterate. And so I think that Lean Startup Eric Ries methodology that came out of software prototyping, and it's why Facebook said move fast break things, you know, like, which stupid and they kind of changed a little bit because culturally, you know, when you're powerful as a nation state, you know, yeah, but but the hacker culture that is what it's like operating a business in market right now, you know, and so nothing is precious test test. Look how much equal parts has changed. Look how much open space is iterated? I'm just like, Guys, nothing is precious. Just test test test.
Phil 32:51
Your design guide. So how do you actually design the way that you iterate?
Emmett Shine 32:57
I think just like, like, start freestyling. Just like, you know, write stuff down. Test it out. Like, you know, I helped to do this. Tequila brand haha tequila with my friend Elliot who's you know, fuck Jerry guy on Instagram. And I'm in a chat right now. And, and they're looking at like, this can design for a new product they're working on. We're just sitting there riffing going back and forth. Yo, try this out, send this to this group chat. What are these girl thinks into this group chat? What do these guys think? Oh, they really like the white cat. Well, the white cat Actually, we know that that gets pretty beat up and transport. What if we had these slightly color? Okay, cool. Let's print that on a piece of paper. let's let's let's you know, hold it in our hand. How does that feel? Okay, cool. How can we actually print that up on a can as cheap as possible? In so it's just like, it's not investing as much time or energy to try to get it right. It's try to get it as poor as fast as possible, as close to real as possible. And then just keep those iteration cycles. Got it? Got it. That's what like that's what like the biggest businesses do like my friend works on Johnny eyes, former design team at Apple. And when they come out with like, the apple airpod Max, which like he works on, they spent years on that and stuff. They don't they don't spend years trying to like, get it right, and then release it. They spend years prototyping it and testing and testing and testing. So when it comes out, they're like, Come at me, bro, because they've already tested it for so long. Makes sense? That makes a lot of sense. Knowing what you know now, do you think you could have continued to run gin lane while also launching pattern? I think in hindsight, what I tried to do was take the whole agency or what we tried to do was take the whole agency and turn it into an operating business and like it's kind of like taking like a half it's kind of like taking sprinters that run the like the 100 and the 400 and be like okay everyone now we're going to run half marathons and it's like, I've been training my whole life. My muscles are designed for sprinting 100 yards at a time. Now you want me to run you know 13 Point two miles like. So I think in hindsight, I probably would have left Jim lane and gave the keys to some of our trusted lieutenants. And then just asked a few people, if they would want to come over for something small that we are starting up to just test and iterate on. I think I just was very romantic in my mindset of like, and loyal to my team, I was like, okay, we're gonna do this new thing, let's all go over and do that. And some people are still with us, but a lot of people that it just didn't make sense, because we are figuring out that new org structure of what we needed. And so what does the team look like now? I like a team, I you know, I mean, we're, we're like, probably almost 30 people full time. But like, you know, we've got supply chain, we've got logistics, we've got, you know, physical product. We've got growth, acquisition and retention marketing, we've got, you know, more a different type of financial backup office team, we've got someone who's got, you know, merger and acquisition experience, you know, and for people that did come over, it's been, it's been hard but challenging because they've had to go from where gin Lane was almost like, not precious. But it was like, we would really put a lot of work into a client presentation, we put a lot of work into something that would go out. And now the expectation is like, just iterate and test, iterate and test, we need to spin something up to show it to a little focus group, we need to spin something up to put on staging to stress, test it. So we everyone still has the same level of quality and care, just the process to get there is a lot more like raw and messy behind the scenes. Cool. Cool.
Phil 36:39
How'd you guys get your first few customers for four equal parts? Maybe?
Emmett Shine 36:45
Yeah, I saw I saw that in like, one of the questions you had and I wish there was like a cooler answer. I think we just kind of like equal parts. We were mad dump how we launched it. We just like the whole thing we did that was also kind of like in hindsight, not the smartest is we're like, yo, we were gin lane. Now we're pattern, and this is what we're gonna do. And it got it got a lot of like cool eyeballs and press and everyone's like, that's cool. I love this story. What are you selling? What are you doing? And we're like, haha, come back in two months. And then it's gone, that whole moments gone. And so two months later, we're like, and it's cooking, you know, and, and, you know, basically, the first 100 customers were just curious people we didn't, we didn't see it, we didn't send it out. We you know, like, we were figuring out our supply chain were so bad at getting all that stuff kind of structured, I think for open spaces when we came out, which was like, so equal parts was like last fall. And open spaces was this spring, like February, kind of about a month before, like COVID stuff really, really hit. You know, we were way more sophisticated about that. And we did, you know, we did three different close launches before we opened it to the public. And so we would invite some of the early adopters from equal parts and pattern friends and family people that had signed up online and refer different people just to test how much people really wanted it, or that cared about this space. And so open spaces, we learned so much about the unsophisticated that we did for equal parts, open spaces, we ran ads online, you know, outside of the major cities to just test colors, we tested pricing, we tested the website, we tested the name, we tested everything. So when it came out, we felt way more confident, which is stuff that we've kind of learned when we worked with hims. We just didn't know how to do it. But that's what like atomic and that group did. They would just test everything, they would create alias brands, and they would run tests against it. And we didn't really understand how important that was for equal parts. But then when we did open spaces, we just tested everything.
Phil 38:47
Cool. Do you guys focus more on open spaces versus equal parts are they they are they equal?
Emmett Shine 38:55
open spaces is a bigger business and equal parts in two parts in two ways, like equal parts. We concepted in 2017, when the the DTC cookware space looked a lot different than it looks, you know, as of last year, or now. And it's quite crowded with a lot of really great brands that offer up pretty awesome products to a customer. So if you're if you're someone that is, you know, in your late 20s, early 30s, and it's 2017 there's not a lot of options to buy beautiful cookware online that's more healthy and nonstick, if it's 2019 2020. You know, there's a lot of options. And so part of the beauty for pattern is we don't need to build any one business to be a billion dollar business, we just need to get it to a profitable place and manage it kind of in a way that makes sense. You know, we're not going to pour money into acquisition costs, if it's not bringing us you know, the return we want to see. And for open spaces, it's just a more open lane. There's just not as many people that are doing beautifully designed, you know, storage items for your home and organization items for your home. So it's just a little bit more like product market fit unique. And so they just have different profiles in terms of how our team approaches marketing them. makes total sense.
Phil 40:09
I want to take a quick jump to just this role of crater creative director, I find it really fascinating. And it's not a rule that I've seen pop out too much with a lot of the deepest footsy brands that I've looked at maybe like, what does it actually mean? What do you actually do?
Emmett Shine 40:26
It's a good question. Because when you do something kind of you don't you're not always like the most articulate about it in some ways. It's like, like a really good basketball players aren't always the best coaches. You know, it's like Steve curves, a great coach, like he's a really like a basketball player that had to really study and I think I'm way better at talking about how to manage and run a business and creative direction, because I think I'm good at creative direction. And I don't always know how to describe it. But but I'll try. I basically think what, what I tried doing is I try to set two things a big vision, hey, this is what we're going to go for, for this initiative for this product for this brand. For this website, this is the big idea, check out these references that are from out of industry. Look at this old Picasso painting, look at this old, you know, industrial design product from the 1970s just getting people's mind thinking. And then the other thing I tried doing is focus on the details. Hey, we could push the copy a little bit more. Okay, cool. Like what if those two pieces on the wire basket hit at a more right angle versus overlapping? You know, and then in between everything else is just empowering the team to make the decisions. And I disagree with everyone that I ever work with all the time. And I just say, you know, I'm going to argue with you, I've got a strong opinion, it's your decision. It's your ultimate decision. You want to stand you know, behind this, that you think that we should have this copy on the website, you think that the design curve should be at this radius angle, then I trust you if you put your reputation behind it and I think creative directors that are wrong, they are the ego people they think that it's all them they think that they're all right. It's it's not it's it's the team, and they need to curate and empower set a big vision and make the details tight.
Phil 42:20
Got it, love it. And I I feel that you You remind me so much of our head of design, you guys would get along I wish he was listening in. But I'll share this recording with him after you guys have such a similar point of view on the role. That's super, it's super interesting to see that that overlap. A question I really wanted to ask you was just, well, two questions. One is Do you have any go to personal frameworks or philosophies that you live by?
Emmett Shine 42:47
Um, I mean, I think I'll probably continue to get more into like, all these words sound nerdy, but the philosophies of Zen Buddhism, I think, are really cool. Because they're kind of like astrophysics and like philosophers about time, in a really kind of cool way. I'm probably a little there's kind of a danger to it, but a little existential, not in the like, the total French Way of like, maybe nihilism, or I don't know, where, like, I don't care. It's just that like, I don't know, I just think like all this stuff we kind of do. It's fun to get caught up in it. But if you look out at the, you know, the stars in the solar system, it's we're so small, and we're so unimportant. But the moments we have that matter to us are really important. And I think that's what like Zen Buddhism type stuff, like is really cool and really profound and really interesting about the timelessness, but also the timeliness. You know, I dabbled a little bit in reading, like stoicism, you know, but I find that it's almost like our version, our generations versions of like, an Raine kind of libertarianism, which I think has taken like a little bit of a dark turn the last 20 years, look at like, you know, hetero kind of, you know, mono male culture in technology out of San Francisco and the West Coast. Like, I don't think that's the most inclusive or diverse in terms of different backgrounds and thoughts. And, you know, it's kind of this meritocracy bullshit, which is like, I worked hard, you should work hard. Well, that's not necessarily really how the game of life totally works. It's like golf. People have like, big handicaps over other people. So if you take a real liberal libertarian meritocracy kind of slant, I don't think that's fair. And I think some stoicism is really good for staying calm and staying focused. But I think Zen Buddhism stuff is probably pretty cool and pretty fascinating.
Phil 44:41
really fascinating and other ways that you have applied some of those Zen Buddhist philosophies to your to your day to day.
Emmett Shine 44:49
Yeah, I mean, I don't know I fuck everything up all the time. Always goes wrong. Like, you know anyone who says otherwise, like they're just lying like it's a controlled desert. After, you know, like, that's, that's the haha fun of like trying to, you know, build a business that startup culture it's also like you're supposed to do so much so fast you know it's like I think sometimes I struggle with like, I don't want to burn people out but at the same time I love working really hard and moving really fast. And I think if you have a little bit of that like Zen mindset, it's like Phil Jackson, kind of, you know, in the last dance, and he's dealing with all these crazy personalities and all this money and all this pressure and the bright lights and he just stays calm. And he's just like, Yo, man, like, you need to take some days off to take some steam off, like, that's fine, I want you to be in a good headspace. So I just, it just doesn't, it's not like, if a launch is delayed a client yells at you like you can get all caught up in it, but it's not. Life goes on, you're bigger than that your life is more defined than, you know, like, what someone says I'm product on or Twitter or another peer from another agency. Like that sounds cool. But it's not the end all be all?
Phil 46:01
For sure. How do you how do you balance kind of that, you know, with your team? How do you actually bring that to life and balance that pressure and that speed that maybe is somewhat required with also enjoying life and enjoying the moment and being able to appreciate what's going on while you're trying to do you know, bring a big vision to life?
Emmett Shine 46:22
Yeah, I don't think I have it totally figured out. I think the first thing that comes to my mind is I probably try to negotiate deals with like, like little kids style, like handshake deals with like, employees being like, Okay, I get your fucking burned out, you know, or like, you don't like how this went down. Let's take two weeks, give me 30 days, let's fix it, I promise, we'll make this better. Like I'll Pinky swear, I'll take you to dinner, I'll do whatever you want, like, I hear you, I acknowledge it, let's just see if we can, you know, make this better. That being said, Sometimes I take that mindset to my girlfriend or like my family, they're like, yo, shut the fuck up. I'm not like your employee, I'm like, your, your your life partner, like I don't want to negotiate or handshake with you. And that's where I have to, like, check myself and just and listen and just appreciate and I don't know, I mean, it's kind of like they say like, it's lonely at the top, or whatever it is. And I don't mean that in that sense of at the top of what I think is kind of lonely is the humbleness of losing the ego. And I think that's something that I don't struggle with as at work. But when I get out of work, and I'm dealing with family and friends, I have to, to not have an ego, I have to not take the energy that I take into work, I have to leave it, I have to leave it which is so hard and like remote work and shit. Because it's like, Where are you metaphysically leaving it, you're in the same state. And then you're just talking to someone over dinner, and you're all amped up, because you just put out 10 fires, and you had this good thing happen. You know, but like, I don't even really talk about my work with my girlfriend, I just asked her, you know, like, how's your day? What's going on with you, and I have to try to check my stress. So I don't get too intense, you know, because she's on a different energy wavelength. I can resonate with that so much. And I'm pretty sure my girlfriend's listening in right now. And we're gonna probably be talking about this a little bit later. And one more for me, and I'm gonna open up the stage to see if the community wants to jump up and maybe ask a question themselves to you like, well, we got you here.
Phil 48:31
If you fast forward 50 years, and you look back, what is what is Emmet accomplished to know that you've lived a fulfilling life?
Emmett Shine 48:40
If I went forward in the future 50 year, I meant forward, I said back so long. Yeah, I mean, again, I guess, I guess it gets back to like, the existential thing of just embracing death and embracing that, like, I mean, there's different ways to look at it, like Steve Jobs when he knew he had cancer. And he gives this kind of speeches at Stanford, you know, and 2005 2006 he's saying, like, the best motivator is, like, knowing you're gonna die, you know, in the sense of like, what do you want to accomplish? Because then maybe don't spend as much time reading, you know, whatever the fuck coughing 10 posts, or BuzzFeed or Instagram or spending time, you know, eating chips on the couch, like that sounds good. We all should have downtime and whatever your rNr version is, like, you know, do it but I What is it? What makes you happy, you know, and I think I even got kind of caught up in like, not having money wanting to be defined by success, not money, but like success in the professional world. And I think that drove a lot of me in my 20s. And I'm still kind of on the tails of that in some regards and patterns is kind of conflicted, interesting mix, where I want to talk about enjoy daily life and anti burnout and, but I am still a VC backed kind of startup. We're working really hard, and we're trying to Make a significant business in a short amount of time, then it would take for most businesses. So I don't know, I look at life as like chapters like gentlemen to pattern and I'm trying to hustle for the rest of my 30s. And in my 40s, I, you know, I look at that, like, I want to, you know, more settled down and more have a family and, and hopefully have, you know, been fortunate enough to try to save a little bit of money up and I just was in Puerto Rico for two months, I was working, you know, but like, I went there with my girl, my dog, and we surf every morning before work and surf every evening after work. And I tell you, I was a lot happier than in New York. And some people could say like, oh, were you on vacation? Like, no, I was working the whole time. But I was happy. I was happy. So I want to I want to do more stuff that makes me happy. Because I think if you're happy, then you can help make others truly happy.
Phil 50:53
Well, well said, man. And I'm actually right now in the mountains in Western Canada, and I'm from Toronto, I took a similar approach. I feel like Puerto Rico sounds quite cool. I'm going to open up the stage. If anyone wants to ask me a question. While we have having here, please just tap the talk or speaking button on the top left. And you can jump up to ask a question directly. I'll give it a second.
Question 1 51:30
Hey, damn it. Hey, hi. Um, it First of all, love your vision. And just like the way you think. I think it's just really authentic. And it really just paints a picture of, you know, how small we are and how much time we have. And like, you know, just getting through the days and really striving for what we want to do on a day to day basis. I'm curious to learn from you a couple of things is what kind of advice would you have for aspiring entrepreneurs and more, particularly, I listed them in the chat is, let's just say you're at a point where you don't have a ton of resources to really start a brand, let's say 10 k Max, but you want to figure out how to prioritize this across multiple things. Maybe inventory, employee tech, infrastructure, marketing, a lot of things you need to have in place to build a sustainable brand. curious, how would you prioritize that all? And then just a second one is more of a fun one. You know, what's one mistake that you can think about is a big mistake, whether it was financially or just had like a lot of impact down the road for your brands? And how would you want others to learn from that mistake?
Emmett Shine 52:47
It's just a daily. Oh, did I say that? Right? Yeah, it's pronounced Juliet. Oh, sorry, Delia, like the catalog back in the day.
Question 1 52:56
Yeah, exactly.
Emmett Shine 52:59
Yeah, I think it's a good question. Like, I get, you know, it used to hit people of all time, and they would never answer me. So people hit me up, and I try to answer it. And people hit me up, and they're literally the epitome of that question. Yo, I got 10 K, I got this job. Like, I'm trying to do this on the side, or I'm trying to quit it, like, you know, what do I do? And I think in some ways, it's kind of like, you gotta treat that money really sacred and really stretch it. And so each dollar, you know, what, what can you What can you kind of test, you know, and what are the goals that you're trying to achieve? Because it could be that you're trying to turn the 10, the 10 k into 20 K. Or it could be that you're trying to turn the 10 k into a deck or a case study or encapsulation that you could get a little bit more money from. So I guess having really clear goals, first is the most important thing. And then the second thing, which like I was really bad at when I was young, because I was insecure when want to ask people for advice, because they would think I was vulnerable. Is is doing what you're kind of doing now, who is asking for advice, but I don't know what the specifics are of what for for you that the industry or the project is it's finding people you know, that have achieved some level of success to you within those spaces and saying them reach out to 10 people maybe to write back and say, I'm going out this people always want to help people out if they have momentum. And it's like, I'm doing this versus should I do this? You know, that's where you could get nerdy Gary Vaynerchuk kind of style is like yeah, take the plunge but like, if you have a plan, people will help you, you know, and just you being prioritized having goals and trying to achieve that goal. Like maybe this sounds like a gross simplification, but it's like, if you know what you want to achieve, it could be 5000 or it could be 50,000 that's the whole crazy thing is that like you could Airbnb guys going fucking IPO nuts today like you know Brian chesky and Joe whatever his name is stuff like they started kind of, you know, with not a lot of money or not A lot of anything and they're just like, Yo, what if we tested this? And then they're like, okay, that's interesting. People will rent the couch in these rooms, okay, shit, we can actually rent full rooms, okay, we could actually rent houses, let's go knock on the doors of the people that actually signed up for this and ask them and so there's so much scrappy stuff that you can do. And obviously, it's kind of like, whatever, whatever bias, you know, but like their IPO is like $10 million today. And that's off of them starting with, like, 10 k. True. Oh, and the other question was, like, what are big mistakes would be to be too big for my britches, you know, every time I like, get good at something, I'd probably try to be like, okay, now I'm ready for this next thing. And, you know, I'll transfer over, you know, my knowledge and try this new thing. And I kind of fall flat on my face. And so I think it's just kind of this tension of like, staying eternally humble and eternally, you know, having to start at zero and move slow and kind of test, you know, you don't need to move fast, and you don't need to, like you know what to do.
Question 1 56:06
Amazing. Thanks for that really helpful, really insightful. I'll leave the floor open for others who want to ask some questions. Thanks, Delia. JOHN, I saw you are up on stage if you want to pop back up.
Phil 56:28
Hey, john. Oh, maybe we got a bug or something. JOHN, maybe you can try to step off stage and back on stage. That could be a bug. And while we're staging of stages while while we're actually waiting, just for to figure that one out, I see a call. question in the comments. What kind of paintings Does your mom paint?
Emmett Shine 56:59
watercolor and wash? Her name is Andrea shine? Awesome.
Phil 57:05
JOHN probably is excellent. The app and then coming back in we can pause for a second and we'll we'll wrap back up. Oh, yeah.
Question 2 57:16
Hold on it. Yo. This is sort of a random a bit a bit off topic. I don't know if you actually have any thoughts here. But I figured I'd just shoot shoot the question. See what you think. There's a lot of like, talk between founders and stuff about mental health, obviously. And there's like, one camp of founders that that think that you know, sort of like having a chip on your shoulder or like sort of the the darker side, the darker psychology side of psychology is actually a big sort of driver of what, you know, progress, I guess. I guess, I guess, first of all, what do you think of what's your like, sort of? How do you approach mental health and that sort of sort of World of stuff as as as a founder? And how do you if you do but believe kind of what I just said about? chip on the shoulder kind of effect? How do you how do you reconcile those? Those two things?
Emmett Shine 58:17
Yeah, man, I think it's a good question. And I just think of it as different types of fuel. And like, one of the easiest to access forms of powerful fuel, but one of the most dangerous is being motivated by others, doubting you. And it you know, it's, it's like it's cheap, the whole you can access it anywhere, and then you just put it into your system. And it could take a dead battery and just give it life. But it's kind of like you have to be really careful because it's almost like dark matter, or like dark energy, ya know, cuz if that's what fuels you for, like, you can't make that be your main fuel. Like, I forget, I always forget that goddamn lyric. But there's some Drake line, which whenever Drake bah, bah, bah, but like, he says, If I was like, if I was doing this for you guys, I would have stopped a long time. Like, I'm just competing with myself, you know, I been competing with myself, I'm trying to see what I'm capable of, at this point, not what you think I'm capable of, and, and on the mental health side, like, I think, I think weird people who, you know, in a typical sense, are attracted to doing weird things. And so I think a lot of entrepreneurs are kind of misfits, and outcasts in some way or other. And all of a sudden, you can kind of find, or, or scientists or engineers or people that are like really highly specialized, you can find this massive amount of success doing something but it doesn't always mean that you're really rounded out as a person. It doesn't mean that you know how to have a healthy relationship or you know, how to have a balance between, you know, friends and work and, you know, there's kind of like we're in such a culture where I'm even like, part of it or Growing up part of it were like, We support these people who are so successful. You watch the story behind Michael Jordan or tiger woods or a politician. And usually it's really sad there. It's full of loss and tragedy, and like, you know, emptiness for these other parts of their life. And it was like an Olympian or anyone who reaches these upper echelons. And so we could say, Oh, you got to make a lot of sacrifices and stuff. But I don't know, I was just in Puerto Rico and surfing when people when they got beat up trucks, and they don't give a shit about any of this stuff, but they're probably less stressed and happier than, you know, me and a lot of us and that stuff is healthy for me to just check where my life priorities because we can just kind of be part of this, you know, American capitalist kind of system where we got to earn money we got to perform, but the stuff I struggle with, and I'm not perfect, because I'm such a product of it is like, for what, why? And I think those are just good questions that sometimes are painful to ask painful for me to ask myself, but I think more of that life balance, like people that are with other people that have multiple friends that have loved ones, especially during COVID and quarantine, like, that's going to keep you on track and keep you kind of going and make you wake up the next day.
Question 2 1:01:19
Look, love that answer.
Phil 1:01:23
Thanks. Thanks, Jay. Thanks, man, that was awesome. We're past five. And I also want to be respectful of your time, will will offer the last question in the comments. I'll just read it out. Then we can wrap up. How do you know when a brand design is done or ready for launch? Especially from a designer's perspective?
Emmett Shine 1:01:42
Yeah, I saw that Cordell. I guess kind of what I what I was saying a little bit on the gym lane side, versus now the patterns I had on the gym lane side, you know, I would, what I would kind of do is I just had a few people around me that were out of industry. So my sister, my girlfriend, and two different friends I grew up with that don't really give a shit about you know, design, or b2c, or typography or you know, kerning or whatever. And I would just be like, Yo, what do you think of this logo? What do you think is website? What do you think is positioning, and they would just look at it with such objective lens, you know, and I trusted them. That was the thing as I would have different people that had different reactions. And my one friend, I know he's going to shit on everything. But I can gauge how he shits on it. And I know my sister is going to be supportive of everything, but I can gauge how she's supportive of it. And so, for me the litmus test when I had to hand something in, because there was an actual deadline, was showing these people out of the company and people in the company as well that I respected. Do we think this is good? Do we really think this is good. And if everyone that I trusted, thought it was good, then it was good. On the pattern side, I would say it's never done, you know, in the sense of like, it's not to waste your time on it. But just to know, like just the simple equal parts like logo mark, you know, we've changed it like 10 times since we launched and it's not that it never was good, or it just you're constantly iterating and, and just it's more like clay, it's more wet versus like dried. If you're if you're in a service, providing space, and it kind of has to be calcified. You have to give it off. And then I think it's having good people around you. But if it's your own or your own internal team of it, I think it's knowing that you're going to revisit it over and over.
Phil 1:03:30
That's a perfect way to wrap up. Thanks for thanks that Emmett, I just want to say thanks so much for a coming on and sharing your your wisdom with the group and, and be just like being real and raw. I think it goes a long way I noticed the most concurrent listeners we've seen in a long time on this chat. And that's just because the honesty is true. And it's real and goes a long way. I really appreciate you taking the time to share with everyone.
Emmett Shine 1:03:55
Yeah, I just put in a little chat for a little pattern group on Geneva, someone who has it. I think it was a Soros asked if there's a community to talk more, that we're just in beta or that it's got like 300 people in there. It's private. But if you want to see Jay requests requested, yeah. So patterns pretty cool. One last thing is we worked on engine lane and just trying to make more of these little safe communities to talk. Like this is fun. Phil, this is cool. You built a pretty awesome community. Thank you. I just hope this stuff is is helpful to others. And I think sharing information and being honest is you know, it's not all easy. It's not all glitters and gold. But if there's just support, I think we should all just support each other more. It's like everything. Everyone looks all fancy on Instagram and tries to make stuff all cool on Twitter, but I don't know, just be vulnerable and try to help.
Phil 1:04:49
Well said, Thank you so much. I met everyone. Thank you for listening in. I appreciate it. Happy Holidays. And we'll be back with another chalk talk soon. Take care. Okay, thank you, ciao.