Two new documentaries have cast a fresh light on the history of AND1, which in the late '90s and early 2000s was the hottest basketball brand in the United States. The rise and fall of AND1 was quick and occurred over less than 10 years. So what lessons can marketers learn from AND1? Ian Leslie and Andy Rosenberg took some time to unpack the history of AND1 for the DTC Growth Show, presented by BANKNOTES minted by #PAID.
Two new documentaries have cast a fresh light on the history of AND1, which in the late '90s and early 2000s was the hottest basketball brand in the United States.
The rise and fall of AND1 was quick and occurred over less than 10 years.
So what lessons can marketers learn from AND1?
Ian Leslie and Andy Rosenberg took some time to unpack the history of AND1 for the DTC Growth Show, presented by BANKNOTES minted by #PAID.
DTC growth show Welcome to the DC growth Show presented by banknotes minted by hashtag paid where we talk about all things ecommerce retail and DTC. My name is Ian and today I'm joined by my friend and all round marketing and product all star Andy Rosenberg free unique episode where we're going to break down marketing lessons that can be learned from the rise and fall of athletic brand and one, Andy,
A, it's great to be on the show all started way too high. And I would say the 92 all star team is really what we should be talking about. I missed those days.
Yeah, so for those listening and maybe not gonna watch the video, I'm wearing an NBA All Star 90 t shirt, which is probably like one of the iconic kind of jerseys for the all star game and the shirts from homage which is like a really cool T Shirt Company out of Columbus Ohio. But um, basically the genesis for ending I just getting together for like, kind of a unique episode of this DVC grow show is just there's been two documentaries recently about Antoine and for those who don't know, and one is a brand of that started in the 90s was really about street ball and streetwear and kind of getting back to the street ball roots of basketball, the playground game. And most recently there was an episode on of untold on Netflix that dove into like the rise and fall of Antoine and it really just got me thinking there like a ton a ton a ton of marketing lessons in what I watched in that like an hour and 20 minutes. And I thought you know, Andy, you're if you're from the tri state area like myself, I was like a gym rat growing up. I played a lot of ball during the summers and just like kinda really thought it was super interesting. Like what the parallels there between like, what happened and won and like, just things that we can learn today with with marketing.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm five foot seven on a good day. So you know, my point guard career was cut short, right around middle school, high school, I was I played soccer, but I always tried to compete. I missed those days, it was super fun. I remember when and one came out. And you know, all my friends ran out and got it right away, and we fell awesome. And while my jump shot need a lot of work, at least I could talk, talk the talk and kind of walk the walk up to a certain point when I was wearing and one. Yeah,
or I'm gonna think like, the first thing I want to bring up is like, there's this whole idea of like the super consumer, right? Or, you know, the super fan, the super consumer or the super user. And I think like, anyone does such a great job of like, understanding who this audience was, and just diving like so deep into that and understanding like we weren't about the basketball period. We weren't about like, you know, Naismith and like, why did we they know why are they allowing the dunk like we're about the right PR we're about the street ball. We're literally about like the urban roots of basketball and and I think their ability to dive into that, particularly in a time like where the NBA was, like David Stern in the NBA was going through a lot with like, tattoos and going through like Allen Iverson was coming in, it was being termed a quote unquote, thug at the time, right. And like, there was a lot going on in terms of like, backlash against like, let's, let's be completely honest, like the NBA getting to urban. And Edwin just like said, You know what, like, those shoppers are our core and there are super consumer, like, let's dive wholeheartedly into that.
Yeah, what makes that even more amazing, you know, looking back at it now, you didn't have Facebook data to spit out and look at are targeting abilities to make this pretty big leap and assumption they had obviously worked to help out with and then they're coming out. But they really, you know, understood the culture of basketball. And I think that's what separated them from a lot of the blandness in the category at the time. Which eventually, as we see, in the untold documentary, Nike eventually catches up to and, you know, but before that point, you know, they were going out a little bit on a whim but had a really great gut sense of where this would fit in the product market, they started selling out of the their trunks, which I thought, you know, is a great underdog story that everyone loves. I think, you know, DC today, we might start doing that as well if we if we can improve some of these efficiencies right now. But I like that mentality and that spirit and I think that's something to take away from from both of documentaries into how we can apply this and in the crazy landscape that we see post iOS 14.5 today how to get that iOS 14.5 Plug In early, put that out to to Apple for making things chaotic.
Yeah. Or I think like, it's super interesting, because like, this is a basket. This was this was an apparel brand eventually got into sneakers. I mean, you know, they signed Stephon Marbury is like their first you know, to wear their sneakers initially. And yet, you know, they, to your point, like they weren't working in digital, there was no Facebook. There was no Google Like, I'm like, I'm someone as a marketer who's always like complaining about like, oh, the space is so crowded now, like good luck cutting, like getting, you know, getting kind of awareness or eyes on your product in such a crowded market, regardless of what the vertical is. And yet these guys were like, they didn't have digital, they didn't have Facebook, they didn't have any of these channels that we have now. And yet, they were at one point, they were second to Nike, and we're the top rated television show on ESPN beyond sports center light. I mean, it's an incredible story. And I just for me, it just like reminds me like if you're, if you're good at your job, and you have a good product, there's there's still ample kind of of Greenway there for you to get your product in front of the right people.
Well, and like I don't know if anyone could exist today started from scratch. based off of how they went about starting the brand, they weren't going on Tik Tok. They weren't going on Instagram and finding micro influencers right or up and coming talent, or even like a major basketball Tiktok star. They were going to Rucker Park, they were going to different basketball courts in across the country to find the talent they knew would Captivate live audiences, but also have that transfer on to national audiences. And so I just don't know if, if that would happen today. You know, I think I think there are a lot of ways that we went that we currently go about where we take the digital, and we tried to apply it into a solution for a national audience and the heart and soul of and one was actually knowing that collective group of super nice local audiences that truly had a passion for basketball. And that was the common denominator there and really led, you know, most of the early brand decisions and also ultimately made it pretty tough to scale, as we see towards the end of documentaries. You know, these homegrown stars eventually realized that they were stars too. And, you know, they did a good job in trying to combat that. But that's going to happen as you scale as a company, and they grew their own influencers, essentially, and create the platform for them. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think, yeah, there's so much so much on Python, but I think to your point, like to win the micro community of, you know, for them, it was really like the tri state area, like didn't even go out west, right. Like they weren't even touching like, the basketball communities in California or anything. And then ultimately, like, yeah, there is still this sense of like, if he could win the metros, then the rest of the country will kind of follow suit and start to glom on to it. But yeah, I mean, it's hard to it's, it's really interesting. But yeah, I mean, let's let's, you brought up the idea of like making their own influencers made. I think that's another aspect is like the basketball players became the influencers. And it really kind of at the end, and for those who haven't watched it yet, like the end of the untold, there was some friction between the basketball players who were on the on one tour and the management and ultimately, you know, this company was acquired and the founders made quite a bit of coin. And one of the founders said, like, in retrospect, he wishes the players were not contract but rather employees so that they could have made out with that acquisition some and they did. And I think it really just brings about like a really interesting question of like, how influencers and creators are being used and our I really don't even know what the question is, it just really wasn't just a really interesting take of how like, this was even an was this was an issue back in early 90s, mid 90s, where the influencers were, you know, helping raise the brand, but maybe didn't always have a stake in the brand.
Do you have a stake in the brand and outside of the brand, they didn't have a huge platform to raise their own profiles the way that you know, creators and influencers do today? Right. So they weren't growing their own social media? Yeah, no, I mean, we're still talking 2004 2005 This is, you know, right when Facebook is coming onto the scene, or, Yeah, cuz I was dating myself, but my first year over at NYU was when Facebook was was launching, so they still had to build, they were still tied to no one to help raise their profile. As you see, when Reebok gets involved, and ultimately Nike, that's when it becomes a bigger challenge. So it's actually other brands that were, you know, really bringing the heat on for an one versus in today's you know, landscape. We see a lot of creators, some start on their own and the brand follows or comes after their fame, right, which is a much different process. You know, I'm really interested currently right now on brands that are you know, celebrity packaged goods, for example, you know, how that's coming into the market currently. You're dealing with an audience already that has millions and millions of followers and watching the product second, you know, I think and one had tried to do Do that. today. I just I don't know if it could be done. This is why I think again how they went and took that localized approach. The equity component is complicated right I think they're learning there but these are also just three to four guys out straight out college who really don't know anything about that this is before influencers and creator and marketing as it is existed altogether. Sure you had the NBA athletes of the world and sponsorships. And there's a lot of great material right now on converse, cording, you know, magic and Larry, ultimately Jordan going, you know, you know, as well with with Nike. You know, I've been watching a lot of basketball, a lot of great basketball content right now. But you know, I think, and one was saying, hey, like, we need to build this brand from the ground up, we're going to take this talent with us, and we're going to have this talent grow, but I don't think they anticipate just how quickly the talent would grow with them. And that ultimately, you know, became a challenge, I think, towards the end and, and today, it'd be much more complicated because I think you'd already have the talent would already have a lot of built in audiences and metrics to send back to say, hey, like, I think there are companies right now where this current problem exists and shows itself peloton being a great example of, you know, trying to keep these really popular instructors, top of mind, and, but you know, they're also competing with each other with social metrics and how people are taking their classes and all of its married. So I just I didn't it was such a such an interesting time for a company like an one to launch. I'm not sure. And this is like a question I'd love like the audience's I could add one launch today. In in, in this, you know, in any form. That's tough.
Yeah, I think it's, that's a super, super good point. And I think like back to the utilizing influencers and could have happen today. I mean, I think one of the things that the documentary shows is like, Hey, these are, these are street ballers, they really didn't have any opportunity to play in the NBA. I mean, their days were over in terms of playing largely. And through and one, you know, they got to stay at these great hotels, they got to travel internationally. And that was sort of in addition to like signing contracts. And that was like the carrier, right? Like, oh, it was I got all these opportunities. I got all that. Thanks to Edwin, we know, if you kind of juxtapose that against today, that's not enough, the brand just can't come and say like, like, over a hashtag page, you know, where we talked about, like, don't get checkout page and product, right? Like you have value, like you have value as the creator promoting the brand. So like, you know, that wouldn't happen today. What happened? Like, oh, get all the one shirts and all the end one swag. And we're gonna put you in these hotels like, like, No, I'm helping your bottom line by x. And I expected a percentage of that. And that's what, you know, we've all just become more educated in how that world should work.
Yeah, I mean, I think athletes used to be on a certain pedestal, right, where they knew their value, they knew that they would be able to get these endorsement deals. And, you know, we kept sponsorship deals, right for brands to a very, you know, isolated, you know, unique group of people who already had the stain built in, by TV exposure built in by performance, you know, in terms of on the court, not on social not in terms of earned media that I mean, Erminia value is a completely different thing than what it is today. And so it really gave a lot of, I think, and one really gave a lot of, you know, voice and attention, as you mentioned to players who weren't going to be able to make the NBA crazy star talents, and invest in them through the product right through the brand itself. And I don't know how, like, that's not a bad thing, but I think they couldn't see just how popular it would get and how much of it hinged on these personalities, people were coming out to the stadiums that were selling out to see that professor to see, you know, these personalities that had long distance Street Legends scale and grow across the country. And I think that's ultimately where it got to this inflection point where they couldn't balance the national attention with the localized popularity that was built into the roots of the brand.
Sure, sure. So for all of us, you know, marketers and going back to our marketing roots and like it, unfun not fun exercise of like the SWOT, right. Like one of my things was at the end of this episode was the big T the big threat was was Nike. And then ultimately, Nike comes out with I think it was 2001 comes out with you know, basically in my opinion, the best basketball commercial ever made. And if you know for anyone listening, watching, just kind of go on YouTube, look up 2001 Nike Hsipaw commercial, but basically it's just it's it's it's choreography. I mean, it's amazing. It's like this is great basketball dribbling exposition, you know, display. But it was just amazing. And it was basically just Nike putting its stake in the ground saying, say, We're here like we're going to, we're going to take you on in terms of this street ball kind of culture in this audience in this market. And they knew they were done after that. They knew they were shot like, and I think like, you know, no matter how good you are, and and I guess I kind of bring it back like we have, right, we have the Amazons of the world, and Netflix and back and a little going down a little bit. But there are these big players who are always just like, at any given point, they can decide, yeah, what you're doing really well, I want to do that, and I'm gonna take it. And I think like that was a threat that was almost unavoidable. Like, yeah, I
don't know what they could have done. Legacy, retailers, Legacy brands, right. I think we're seeing a very similar moment right now, in that, you know, one of the biggest tease threats to DC at the moment are legacy retailers who are building up their econ branches, they're taking the reverse path. So much of DC started with EECOM. And now it's going brick and mortar retail. And now you have a bunch of legacy retailers who are still the giant whales in the ocean swallowing the guppies up because they have the dollars and they have the margin capabilities and the efficiencies or the ability to be inefficient to make all this happen. And I think you know, when Nike came in Nike, I believe was Wyden Kennedy at the time. I could be wrong. Yeah, it was it was Yeah. So it's why we Kennedy, I mean, I would have killed to join Wyden Kennedy coming out of NYU in 2008. It was like the dream ad job. You know, they had the budget, they had the money, and they had the notoriety that it for me built that need to say notoriety, because you know, that has a negative connotation. But they had everything, the tool set that needed to just say, Hey, look at the smaller fish in the ocean, look what they've built. We're gonna take our ad dollars, and we're going to basically, you know, apply it to this our legacy brand. And guess what, that's business? And that's what we're facing right now. And I think the key thing here is, you know, a question, How could anyone have safeguarded themselves from that? Probably knowing someone at Lyman Kennedy who information that this was going to happen outside of that, I think there's going to be very tough and I think a lot of companies when they're faced with decisions of hay, do we sell the company paid? How do we scale this? Do we take an additional investment? It's to compete against those moments? And it's very, I don't know if I don't know if and one, I think one thing that documentaries fail to kind of really address, do they? Do they really not see this coming? Or were there further opportunities to to get out a little bit earlier of Nike or could end and a follow up to that? Could they have even anticipated the cataclysmic effect that would happen? You can dictionary check. If I've said that the right way I made up word. Sometimes they do that, you know, for Nike to come in and just do this at that moment. And could they see it, this would have such a negative impact on the brand. I think, one way too easy to rationalize that could have been, oh, well, this will gain more credibility for street ball. But they didn't see that halo effect. We love to toss around that word halo that will make you said, Hey, we're gonna take the ball from you. No pun intended. Pun intended. And we're gonna run with it. And that was ultimately the end.
Yeah, to get a sense of like, and I don't know if how much of it was just the culture at the time, the lack of digital media like though but the one thing that shocked me and I don't remember what year it was, but like the epic Vince Carter slam dunk contest performance year, and he was wearing and one sneakers, and they weren't paying him. And but he wasn't. So he wasn't officially endorsing them. And like, there was no news around that. Like there was no like, if that happened today, and like the best slam dunk artist of all time in the NBA was wearing you know, a brand like so there was almost like a night activity like there of like, how to how to leverage that it was just almost like it was the sense in the documentary was like, oh, cool, was just a product placement, like and maybe that was was was a fork in the road where they really hey, if we had Vince Carter in our camp, we went that way. And we signed him and whatever. Instead, it was just Nike, Nike, Nike, and they, you know, did what, what Nike does?
Yeah, I mean, one of the issues there, today that happens, it's amplified across social, it's played 1000s of views, you know, five minutes right after it happens, and it lives on at least for a couple of days. When it happened back then it's just a moment in time. That's cool. And but it's word of mouth. It doesn't get much more exposure than it does in the moment. So it's much more difficult, I think. And, you know, the athletic world in general is very tough. A lot of these athletes have exclusive contracts with apparel providers so that you know, I don't know Vince's deals were at the moment at that point, but a lot of them can't even wear another brand, because Nike or Adidas locks them in. So, you know, you could not create a groundswell around that moment, you know, brand marketers would kill for that today, in terms of that to two words that we always say brand awareness. Well, what better way like you said, than to have the greatest, arguably the greatest talker of all time in your shoes, but there was no way to amplify that message and let it live on and I think that really hurt and one at a time. So as exciting as it was for them. It kind of lived in an echo chamber.
Yeah. So I mean, I think as we're coming up on 20 minutes, I think he's, you know, this is the perfect kind of snack size. You know, conversation itis. Oh, we're Yeah, press out the snacks there. Yeah. So
there we go. I know you're a fan of I'm going to try to be professional salt and vinegar. Shout out to Sam for sending these my way. Not really sponsor, I think you have to disclose that. Right. But what are you gonna grab? Oh,
yeah, I think I have up here some hot chocolate flops.
I love those. Well, they're good. Yeah.
But um, as we're, as we're eating or making a lot of crinkle noise on audio? What? What would be our start, while you're doing what would be two takeaways, you know, for me two takeaways, that a DDC brand can can kind of take away from this now to learn from? And I think for me, it is, you know, one is like treat your influencers well treat your Creator as well to your partner as well. And I think that was a big kind of overarching theme was that there were seemed like the, you know, the players were seen as employees, but weren't, weren't actually employees, and almost would was seemed like, oh, they should be grateful for what they're getting here instead of being like, true partners of the brand. So and they came back to bite him in the butt a little bit. The second piece for me is, I think, like we just touched on is just the threat aspect. I mean, I think like, I joke around about the SWOT analysis, it's sort of annoying. It's not fun to do. But I mean, that was a true threat. And maybe they were, I mean, they knew Nike was out there. But regardless, they weren't prepared for it. And who knows if that was something that could have prepared for. But yeah, so I mean, those are those are sort of my two takeaways.
Yeah, you know, I think, for me, maybe an under appreciation of retention of existing employees, you know, there was a little bit of that happens, but there was a little bit of friction. And as soon as you saw, you know, one or two team members deviate and move, or become less interest in the business, you know, they had a very negative quarter, right, in terms of the shoe designer that so I think that's something that, you know, it's very hard to keep a startup team together. But value those moments, even if, you know, at times, you know, the business leads, having that experience within your ecosystem is invaluable when, when there's those tough moments. Because you can always learn to pivot from having someone in the organization that's that was there from day one. So I think, a little bit that's more touching on the founder relationships. And that's something I took away from it, really just having that same consistent team to navigate those waters. And then I think, ultimately, also diversification of marketing channels. You know, no one was limited in how they could but they did reach out early to retail partners, third party, you know, retail was huge for them getting in, you know, at the foot actions of the world, having out of house signage in these locations to really create that ran pressure to make them feel bigger than they actually were in the beginning, I think is huge. And I think as long as startups are trying to compete with those juggernauts right now, you know, having a great little bit of out of house, you know, advertising doesn't hurt a lot of a lot of companies are scared to do it, because you can't measure it at the moat all the time with with certain partners. But I think Antoine did a really good job of making themselves appear bigger than they already were. And then combining that with a lot of their efforts, you know, within you know, the courts of the East Coast. We're able to to grow as a brand faster probably than they should have.
will cool Andy, this is awesome conversation. Thanks for Thanks for joining me love to do it again.
Oh, for sure. Thanks, Anna had a blast. Well, it's a lot to hoop it up sometime too.
Yeah. Or soccer.
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